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General Debate 23 October 2009 Add this story to Scoopit!.

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147 Responses to “General Debate 23 October 2009”

  1. mickysavage (577) Vote: Add rating 10  Subtract rating 62   Says:

    I see the nats have broken another promise by moving to privatise ACC. It is yet another example of a small tail (ACT) wagging a big dog (National). All that will happen is that the country will write a cheque for $200m for Aussie insurers and Kiwis will get worse cover,

  2. kaya (551) Vote: Add rating 41  Subtract rating 4   Says:

    mickysavage – there is a difference between privatisation and competition, something that bureacrats in state owned assets are terrified by.

  3. Scorpio (182) Vote: Add rating 40  Subtract rating 4   Says:

    I hope the Nats do open ACC to competition.

    And if the ‘large Aussie insurance companies’ can run it at a profit, it just show how damn broken ACC is.
    And as for Labour saying it will cost more and we will get less entitlements (I hate that word) then they obviously think we’re idiots. Who on Earth would switch to a large Aussie Ins co if it costs more and we get less?
    The latest is a suggestion (I think by Parker) that the donations to National from Ins companies has something to do with it. Oh my God! How can spout such lies with no evidence and get away with it! You got the proof, then show us or STFU.

  4. cha (436) Vote: Add rating 5  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    So Tom, which policy will cover wandering off with strangers and getting beaten half to death?.

  5. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (279) Vote: Add rating 36  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Don’t worry Micky, Mr 4% will fix it all when he’s Prime Minister. ————-> Tui Ad

  6. Neil (294) Vote: Add rating 31  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    I want to change the topic to record the joy Southland’s win of the Ranfurly Shield has brought to our province.
    Maybe that doesn’t resonate with urban dwellers in the three main centres but to people in the provinces shows that life is continuing in those areas. We pull together to achieve something.
    Big money of the urban areas doesn’t beat real “togetherness” of the provinces where people know each other and aren’t in the world of megabucks.Apathy is prevalent among the hierachy of rugby administrators and the All Black player class- not in the provinces.
    Don’t expect Southland to be a long term holder, however it would be great to spread the shield further in the provinces.

  7. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 39   Says:

    “..mickysavage – there is a difference between privatisation and competition,.”

    really..? are quite the one for ‘buying the spin’..

    aren’t you..?

    (and maybe the green party should ask hide for a masterclass..?

    maybe entitled”..’how to get things done’..?..)


  8. Pete George (2356) Vote: Add rating 24  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    I agree Neil, great to see the shield going South. And good to see Southland rugby doing well generally.

  9. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (279) Vote: Add rating 20  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    I have to agree Neil. What a great win for the boys down south.

  10. Patrick Starr (3454) Vote: Add rating 23  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    mickey – was that election promise based on the expectation prefu was accurate and honest?

  11. dime (1551) Vote: Add rating 27  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    lmao so by opening ACC up to competition, they will become a private company??? owned by who exactly? who would buy a company like that? the only person i can think of is Cullen, but i doubt he has the cash :)

  12. Manolo (921) Vote: Add rating 28  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    “All that will happen is that the country will write a cheque for $200m for Aussie insurers and Kiwis will get worse cover..”

    Honouring the well known leftie tradition of scaremongering and spreading rumours, without facts to substantiate its assertions.

    Lies, lies and more lies from minions of the socialist propaganda machine.

  13. MikeNZ (645) Vote: Add rating 9  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Neil, Yes well done to Southland.

    A right roaring row going on in the UK over the BNP leader going on the BBC.
    here Melene Phillips take in the Spectator on the undercurrent that the media isn’t linking to.

  14. wynkie (51) Vote: Add rating 11  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    The Shield win for Southland will be a big boost for local economy. Farmers mights even shout themselves a new tractor!

  15. Lance (243) Vote: Add rating 28  Subtract rating 4   Says:

    It was Kullens greatest achievement and personal triumph to fuck over the ACC privatisation of the work place account and re-nationalise it.
    How very communist.

    Oh the sweetness of the reinstatement of sanity… Kullen lost, ACC work place is being opened up to competition… eat that!

  16. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 43   Says:

    you lot are all just really happy that we are to give our soverign asset to the australian insurance companies..?

    that we are to send them hundreds of millions of dollars more..?..each year..than we already are..?

    are you all complete fucken morons..?

    that can’t see past your ideological one-eye..?

    to me..this borders on traitorous behaviour by key/national/act..

    ‘giving’ our foreigners..

    haven’t we learn’t that fucken lesson yet..?

    (i mean..they aren’t even fucken selling it..

    they are just fucken giving it away..)

    and maybe you mouth-breathing knuckledraggers should listen to ‘your’ man..

    the head of the bosses’ pressure group..

    who is very wary of the whole idea..

    what’s next rodney..?

    and will lord ashcroft be an investor..?..

    dipping into this new big pool of punters’-money..?

    is he a big investor in the australian industry..?

    i wonder..?


  17. bobux (308) Vote: Add rating 24  Subtract rating 0   Says:


    What promise have they broken?

    From a July 08 media release:

    “National supports the principle of competition and choice in the ACC Work Account, which covers employees and self-employed at work. The issues around providing competition in relation to the Work Account are well known and understood. The same cannot be said of the other accounts.” National will:

    • Investigate opening the Work Account to competition.
    • Conduct a full stock-take of the various components of the ACC scheme, evaluate progress to full funding, and identify areas of cross-subsidy or cost-shifting and underfunding of newly-legislated entitlements.
    • Investigate the introduction of an independent disputes tribunal to end ACC’s dual role of judge and jury on disputed claims.

  18. fredinthegrass (89) Vote: Add rating 16  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    The Ranfurly Shield in Southland for the summer.
    This is a summer to look forward to.

    Well done to the Southern Men.
    Might try a few Speights for a change – Yeah Right!!

  19. dime (1551) Vote: Add rating 19  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    lol what would you rather do? give OUR money to aussie companies? (while paying less and have a choice) or stick with the current regime, have no choice and just lose the money!

  20. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 28   Says:

    “..Honouring the well known leftie tradition of scaremongering and spreading rumours, without facts to substantiate its assertions..”

    here are your facts..!..moron..!

    (this is what i reported on the second of july..last year..)

    “..Australian insurers are poised to make a $200 million killing if National wins power and goes ahead with an “informal” plan to privatise ACC, a broker’s report says.

    The report, issued by the Australian broking arm of investment bank Merrill Lynch, said privatisation could unlock $2.1 billion in new premium income, adding an “incremental kick” of $200 million to the industry’s after-tax earnings.

    Prime candidates for privatisation were the workers’ compensation and motor accident accounts.

    “Publicly, as best we can identify, and contrary to the statements made by several insurers we have met with in New Zealand, the National Party has made no formal statement on its plans for the ACC,” the report by analyst Andrew Kearnan says.

    “Informally, however, we understand the National Party has been very clear in saying it will privatise the ACC..

    ..and we are told there is a well-buried comment on the National Party website suggesting they plan to privatise the market.”


  21. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 6  Subtract rating 17   Says:

    Why not do as Obama is attempting in the US – competition but with a public option to keep the bastards honest? Just like we have in the banking system with Kiwibank.

  22. Patrick Starr (3454) Vote: Add rating 38  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    “‘giving’ our foreigners..”

    whats this ‘our’ wealth? you’ve never contributed to anything -ya parasite. We’ve been forced to share ‘our’ wealth with you for decades you prick

  23. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 20   Says:

    “..Why not do as Obama is attempting in the US..”

    don’t you see that key/national/act/maori party are taking us in the opposite direction than obama is trying to take america/free america from..?

    (the clutches of big insurance companies..

    who only have their bottom-line/profits as their priority..)


  24. david (1125) Vote: Add rating 22  Subtract rating 5   Says:

    philu (6326) Vote: 0 3 Says:

    October 23rd, 2009 at 9:19 am
    you lot are all just really happy that we are to give our soverign asset to the australian insurance companies..?

    WTF phil.

    I find your ramblings naively simple at times (when I can be bothered reading them) but this takes the cake.

    ACC is not an asset, it is a liability. An albatross around the neck of every earning New Zealander, not just now but well into the future. Your son (as also mine) will be bearing the cost until the day he retires.
    The Labour government, by defining ACC in their tiny socialist minds as a welfare scheme, fed the albatross up to the point that it can no longer fly and it is a dead weight on the economy – and will get worse.

    That you are neither an earner nor an economic literate makes you singularly unqualified to even habve an opinion, let alone voice such trash.
    Although judging from a recent comment you drive a Mac. So have you been moonlighting and not telling your case manager phil?, or is it that the system is so generous that it affords such luxuries in addition to the “necessaries of life”?

  25. Manolo (921) Vote: Add rating 24  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    “don’t you see that key/national/act/maori party are taking us..”

    Go back to cooking duties, you pathological liar. As a parasitical non-productive member of society you have no right at all to comment on money earnt / spent by others.

  26. cha (436) Vote: Add rating 12  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Like last time Luc, the default setting will still be ACC with only a few large employers changing their work place insurer, the motor vehicle account still funded by registration and the non earners funded by the taxpayer.

    The real headache will be the non-work account so good luck to anyone who thinks that buying the level of cover that ACC presently provides will be cheap.

  27. gazzmaniac (327) Vote: Add rating 9  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    If the left are so worried about “aussie insurance companies” they could raise some capital, set up a kiwi insurance company and offer a better deal.

    By the way, I drive a mac too. It just works better than windows, there is no pissing round to get stuff working. If you work out how much pissing round you do with a windows machine and give it an hourly cost, the mac comes out cheaper by far.

  28. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 27   Says:

    “..ACC is not an asset, it is a liability. An albatross around the neck of every earning New Zealander, not just now but well into the future…”


    that’s why the insurance industry is slavering on the sideline..

    that $200 million a year profit..from this ‘liability’..


    fuck..! are thick..!

    and you really believe/swallow the

    wanna buy a bridge..?


  29. Patrick Starr (3454) Vote: Add rating 33  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    “wanna buy a bridge..?”

    what would you do for shelter?

  30. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 26   Says:

    “..If the left are so worried about “aussie insurance companies” they could raise some capital, set up a kiwi insurance company and offer a better deal..”

    we already have’s called a.c.c…

    like’s not perfect..

    but a fuck sight better than the ‘privateer-model’..


  31. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 20   Says:

    one day..far far into the future..

    the stripper/hooker starr will make a comment on the issue..

    (many of us think he can’t..)

    but i’m more generous..

    and say ..’give him a year or so come up with one..’



  32. getstaffed (4310) Vote: Add rating 15  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Lefties oppose competition in the ACC workers account not becase it’s a bad thing (they all choose their home/car insurers), but because is something they can foam and lie about.

    This reversion to type had been difficult while Key pandered to the socialist mindset.

    Competition? More please.

    State sector bloat? Less please.

    Rate of reform? Faster please.

  33. david (1125) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    gazzamaniac – so do I so I am aware that they are “top end” in the price range. Permanent welfare recipients getting a “hand-up” from their dire financial straits are not a group I would expect to be aiming at that price-point.

  34. gazzmaniac (327) Vote: Add rating 9  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    Phil you are a plonker.
    ACC should be open to competition. And when it is, if you are so worried about using a foreign provider, set up a private Kiwi firm in competition with them so that people choose to stay onshore.

  35. Leg Break (77) Vote: Add rating 14  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Yup, well done Southland. Althoguh I’m pleased I missed the game itself.

    Loved the shots on TV this morning of the guys celebrating in the Invercargill pub. Stag ears, some guy with his eyes shut singing a song and, best of all, long Formica tables. Brilliant.

  36. gazzmaniac (327) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    david –
    good point re apple products. But by taking a cheap shot at Phil about driving a mac, you have taken a cheap shot at those of us who can afford one.

  37. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 21   Says:

    no stuffed..

    bottom line is..

    why give hundreds of millions of dollars to australian insurance companies..?

    when we don’t need to..

    international rankings have our a.c.c. system as a world-beater..

    most efficient..and giving good service to the punters..

    it isn’;t broken..

    and this panic..driven by bullshit/massaged stats/projections..

    is just the manufactured-crisis..

    to ease/achieve this ‘giving’ of our worldbeating system..

    to australian insurance profit from..

    (is it being a ‘leftie’..?

    to see this as utter madness..?)

    i mean..this is not a left/right issue..

    it is a soverignty-issue..

    and key/national/act..are ‘giving’ us away..


  38. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 18   Says:

    “..ACC should be open to competition..”


    have you thought past that slogan..?

    do tell..!


  39. getstaffed (4310) Vote: Add rating 27  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    The desperate appeals to nationalistic economics (’Oooo look, $200m will go straight to Oz’) come from people who:-

    -Drink Australian wine
    -Wear Italian and Chinese clothes
    -Use US software running on Malaysian-built PC
    -Drive German cars
    -Eat bananas imported from Bolivia
    -Listen to iPods built in Taiwan
    -Fly on aircraft built in France
    -Use cellphones designed in Finland

    And so on. The point is not so much the surface hypocrisy (which is just ranting), but more the clearly demonstrated fact the EVERY NZer likes choice. Period.

  40. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 4  Subtract rating 15   Says:

    Cha, thanks for that reminder. I only have vague memories of last time. My then employer changed provider, but luckily I didn’t have an accident that year.

    I do remember having reservations about disputes procedures.

    I understand too that these days large employers can elect to self insure, so I wonder how much enthusiasm they will have for change? It’s a pretty level playing field, as it is.

    I think railing against competition for the sake of it is short sighted. But the fact is overseas examples aren’t encouraging. For example, a new study by Harvard alleges that 45,000 Americans die each year as a direct result of not being able to afford health insurance. Then you have the horror stories of companies taking the premiums and refusing to pay out for some minor infraction – like not reporting acne as a teenager! And the way the companies refuse to reinsure those who do get sick.

    Personally, I like the comfort of a state provider when I need to rely on it to feed my family when I’m injured, whether at work or at play.

  41. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 21   Says:


    you reckon most kiwis are happy-as at the prospect of the arrival of the australian insurance vultures..?

    here to take $200 million a year away with them..?

    (and that just for ’starters’..?..)

    and just the mention of the word ‘choice’..will assauage any concerns they may have..

    (like that ‘choice’ in the electricity-industry..that has been so good for

    anyone else notice the same bait/lies being told..?

    ‘cheaper power-bills/insurance premiums’..

    are you gonna ‘get fooled again’..?


    funny how those insurance companies are so kind.. offer to take this ‘liability’ off our hands..


    (whew..!..i guess we should b grateful they aren’t also ‘charging us’

    tho’..there is plenty of time for that ‘charging’

    and into the future..)


    does anyone know if john key has lotsa shares in aussie insurance companies..?

  42. libertyscott (245) Vote: Add rating 24  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    The evasion of facts is astonishing.

    ACC is paid for by employers, motor vehicle owners and general taxpayers for employment, road and other accidents respectively. When it fails, levies get hiked to pay for its own incompetence, and if it doesn’t perform you don’t get any choice.

    Perhaps the worst thing about ACC is how it doesn’t reward good behaviour or penalise bad. Someone who is a serial accident causer on the roads pays the same as someone who has a clean record. Bad service from ACC (like a family member recently experienced) means nothing.

    I am astonished at the constant repeat of nonsense about how it is an internationally admired system, yet NO other country has adopted it.

    The only reason I have seen is a blame that every other country is in the pocket of insurance companies, which is impossible to prove, but also highly unlikely. Why wouldn’t the relatively socialist Scandinavian states adopt the model?

    Open the employer account up, then the motor vehicle one and finally, have, initially, the tax component paid to ACC converted into a personal account everyone has, for accident insurance. Let people pay for their own risk, and if you abandon it, then tough.

    Then, finally, accident insurers will reward those who are careful or have low risk lifestyles, and charge those who are high risk, instead of the socialist “everyone pays the same and everyone gets the same” nonsense.

  43. senzafine (216) Vote: Add rating 13  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Phil. ACC is Billions of dollars in the Hole. How on earth can you class it as an asset? The fact is, ACC is an extreme liability.

    The second point, of course, is that ACC are going to have to lift their game in order to survive in a competitive market. This can only be good for you, for me and indeed for the country as a whole.

    ACC are going to have to undergo a long overdue culture change here. Long, Long overdue.

  44. libertyscott (245) Vote: Add rating 12  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    The “Australian insurance company” bogey is hilarious. How xenophobic can you get?

    From the same party that wanted Air NZ to be taken over by Qantas (until it was made clear how that would create a huge dominant airline on umpteen routes).

    Aussie bastards, let’s abandon CER, put up the walls. Noticed how so many pharmaceuticals are made by foreigners? Foreign food too. Devils.

  45. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 15   Says:


    if it is such a ‘liabilty’..

    why are the australian insurance companies lining up..

    to extreact $200 million (profits) a year from our economy..

    in particular..our ‘liabilty’..?

    gee..! will they manage that..?


    from such a ‘liability’..?


  46. Owen McShane (894) Vote: Add rating 14  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Small business will benefit hugely. My wife and I own our company. The company pays ACC. A huge amount for the risks of working at home. But then we take drawings out of the company as self employed people and we each have to pay again.
    How come we pay twice for one set of insurance?
    When Labour re-monopolised ACC last time it was all the small businesses who were hurt the most. I remember the owner of a small art gallery whose ACC levies skyrocketed and of course she too had to pay twice.

  47. senzafine (216) Vote: Add rating 10  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Phil: Because they know how to successfully run a business.

    IE: They can actually turn a profit.

  48. david (1125) Vote: Add rating 5  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    Where is the queue phil? it sure aint outside my place.
    Please make an effort to be in the real world rather than the fantasyland you inhabit most of the time.

  49. gazzmaniac (327) Vote: Add rating 12  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    If Australian insurers take $200 million from the economy per year, it will take 20 years for the economy to lose the same amount of money that ACC did last year.
    In Australia, you still have the right to sue for personal injury. The cost for Compulsory Third Party insurance (that is injury insurance only, what is called third party in NZ is called “Property Liability”) is about the same as for ACC, yet if I get severely injured in a car crash in Australia and cannot work ever again, I will get a lump sum payout for the amount that I would otherwise have earned, provided I wasn’t at fault. If I was at fault, there is a similar schedule to ACC. Similarly if I am injured at work, I will get a lump sum payout if I can never work again, or I will be paid my wage until I am better. From what I can gather this costs the employer roughly the same as ACC does in New Zealand, yet there is so much more cover. Which is the better system?
    There is also evidence that in the 1990s when ACC was open to competition, the premiums decreased significantly. The premiums were also relative to the risk, not the turnover or profit of the company who pays them. IMHO that is far fairer, and there is a genuine incentive to make workplaces safer, i.e. premiums are reduced for those companies who have proper safety policies.

  50. wynkie (51) Vote: Add rating 8  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    I’d be very concerned about opening up to competition unless there is substantial insurance law reform to support claimants so that they can afford expensive legal battles that they can ill afford. If we had similar Insurance legislation to the Australians we’d be well on the way.

    Similarly the government needs to be very selective in terms of the companies the engage to compete. To research the reputation of the various insurers, including their claim paying, based on a claimants perspective, not on some industry based research, or agent feedback.

    In my experience private insurers will do anything possible to avoid paying out on legitimate, medically well documented disabillity claims.

    Here’s an example of just some of the dirty tactics they used on me:

    After a period of time my insurance company refused to communicate with me, forcing me to go through a lawyer. A cost and stress you simply can’t afford when your suffering from a disabillity with significantly reduced financial means. Another words taking advantage of your disability.

    This insurance company also wouldn’t issue a letter of deadlock allowing me to go to the Insurance Ombudsman.
    Even if they did issue the letter however, the Ombudsman cannot deal with commercial matters, which many disabillity claims on the earnings account are. That is, loss of earnings policies.

    The only option you’re left with is to go to the Court. And given that most disability claims exceed $200,000 you are facing the High Court and associated costs to fight the big OZ insurance companies, with their big lawyers like Bell Gully, Phillips Fox, and even their own inhouse legal counsel. All resources that you don’t have. You’ll end up spending $100,000+ on legal fees. This is a David vs Goliath type battle.

    Then comes their assessments, where you’ve already had heaps (like an Eastlight folder full of documented evidence) by New Zealands leading specialists, and ACC assessors, they’ll send you to a toad like Des Gorman, who they misrepresent as being an expert in something he’s not, because they know he write a report in the insurance companies favour. And then you’re screwed. He’ll say, despite all the medical evidence on file, that you can go back to work full time, when clearly you can’t. And bingo the insurance company have you off claim, and to fight their decision your have to go through the expensive legal process outlined above.

    When it comes to providing you copies of your files, my insurance company removed the original hand written notes, and type those most daming up, to cover up evidence of bad faith.

    They will stop at nothing in order to pay out.

    My advice is:

    1/Make sure your insurance company is a member of the Insurance Council of NZ.
    2/Don’t go near New Zealand’s biggest insurer.
    3/Read you policy first before you sign up.
    4/Be very clear about how your loss of earnings policy works for both a total and partial disability claim.
    5/Be very clear about what qualifies you for a disability claim eg., two weeks totally disabled. Or is it 3 months total disability. (If it’s 3 months the insurance company will do everything possible to get you back to work when you should possibly be rehabilitating, which just makes your condition worse, prolonging your disability, or even leading to it becoming permanent.)
    6/Don’t just willingly accept going near the insurance company’s assessors. Ask to see a list to choose from which is your right, and check their reputation for professionalism to provide an accurate assessment. Ask to see their credentials and qualifications.
    7/Make sure you have your own assessments, get the best and most respected you can to counteract the insurance company assessors should it result in legal action down the track.
    8/Don’t go near Des Gorman for an assessment – for anything neurological – eg., neurological diseases, mental health issues, or head injuries, as he is NOT a Neurologist and not qualified to diagnose.
    8/Don’t go near Des Gorman for an occupational/vocational assessment – not because he’s not qualified – but because he’s an insurance company toad.
    9/Make sure you put everything in writing to document your evidence and communication with respect to your claim.
    10/Do NOT communicate with them on the phone. (See 9 above.)
    11/Saveguard your Privacy. Do NOT just sign an open ended release agremeent giving them access to everything in your life – banks, dentists, doctors, governtment agencies, therapists, medical providers, etc etc etc.
    12/Get good legal advice if necessary, but don’t get caught up in a legal battle, lining the pockets of the lawyers.
    13/ Seriously consider using public relations as the most effective tool to reach settlement so to expose the bad faith tactics of the insurance company.
    14/Get a good support network around you.
    15/Be very careful about your financial accounts. Don’t try and minimise your tax to the point you don’t have an adequate income in the event of a disability. eg., 75% indemnity or 55% Agreed Value.
    16/Be realistic about your insurance needs if your unable to work – eg., mortgage and ability to live and retire.
    17/Don’t opt for a policy with only two years cover. Ensure you have a policy that covers you until 65 years.
    18/Keep excellent records of everything – including all the underwriting information.
    19/Don’t trust your broker to understand your policy or to necessarily have your best interests at heart.
    20/Ask around and check an insurance company’s reputation before you sign up with them.

    In my experience ACC haven’t been brilliant to deal with, but rather frustratingly, yet adequate. However by comparison my private insurance company is a complete nightmare to deal with whom have no concept of the terms “good faith” or “duty of care”.

  51. malcolm (550) Vote: Add rating 6  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Good post LibertyScott.

    If a private company makes a profit, that doesn’t mean NZ would be better off having that activity run by the government at zero profit. That’s a simplistic and demonstrably flawed notion. It completely ignores the fact that the government often runs thing poorly and politically and we all lose, due to the inherent wastage. Both direct wastage and the opportunity cost of having our money taken in taxes to pay for the waste/inefficiency.

    Profit is necessary. It’s a by-product of well run entity. If you see a profit being made in the presence of competition then you can bet your last welfare dollar that a good product or service is being delivered.

    If the zero-profit-government-run model is such an obvious solution, why stop with ACC? Lets have government run supermarkets, government run farms, government run software companies, government run washing machine makers, government run airlines (..oops), government run hospitals (..oops). You get the idea.

  52. libertyscott (245) Vote: Add rating 5  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Btw tweeting the BNP Leader broadcast on BBC Question Time.

  53. wynkie (51) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    In the first paragraph I meant the word “avoid” expensive legal battles that they can ill afford.

  54. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 15   Says:

    “..If the zero-profit-government-run model is such an obvious solution, why stop with ACC? Lets have government run supermarkets, government run farms, government run software companies, government run washing machine makers, government run airlines (..oops), government run hospitals (..oops). You get the idea..”

    nah..!..i wd lean more to the co-op-model..


    now there’s socialism/the co-op-model in action..!



  55. nickb (811) Vote: Add rating 6  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    now there’s socialism/the co-op-model in action..!

    How are private individuals empowering themsevles being socialist?

    Government plays zero part in it. Shouldn’t you be outraged that the proletariat are bettering themselves through capitalist means in Fonterra?

  56. Johnboy (1669) Vote: Add rating 7  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Another socialist paradise going the same way we were under Helengrad———down the gurgler.

    Maybe Hugo should go for the low flow rate shower heads we were going to get under our previous inspired leadership.

  57. malcolm (550) Vote: Add rating 7  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Fonterra is an interesting case. They are co-op of sorts, but their aim is to make as much profit for their shareholders (farmer who supply it milk). There’s that profit thing again.

    Interestingly, it is well accepted that Fonterra’s co-op model is holding the company back. They wanted to be the Nestle of the south pacific, but they can’t raise the capital to do much more than export milk powder. Hence why they’re going through the process of becoming less like a co-op (allowing shares trading etc).

  58. Fisiani (182) Vote: Add rating 12  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Grreat to see that the Rrranfurrly Shield is in Southland

  59. cha (436) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Where do you get your health insurance from?

  60. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 13   Says:

    fonterra is a co-op..owned by the ‘workers’..

    how more ’socialist’ could it be..?

    (cd someone explain this co-op-model .. to the confused-ones..?..



  61. Pete George (2356) Vote: Add rating 5  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    This is not a simple matter of public bloat, private efficiency (which is widely variable anyway).

    I don’t like how much I pay for ACC, and I think that needs to be addressed. I think that some private component may be necessary, but I don’t think it will be a simple move towards improvement. There are likely to be casualties along the way.

    If we suddenly have competition for workplace cover we are going to have to take a gamble. We will have to choose companies who have no premium history and no reputation for providing fair cover. A lot of people may pay less, but many of them will get less, and some may get substantially less.

    I think something equivalent to the Disputes Tribunal (that is able to deal with the potential values involved) may be good insurance for everyone.

  62. Pete George (2356) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    There will also need to be a clear demarcation between work related and other injuries.

  63. gazzmaniac (327) Vote: Add rating 6  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    wynkie – ACC are just as bad with not honoring legitimate claims. A member of my family broke his tooth shortly after ACC began in the 1970s and his dentist gave him a plate, paid for by ACC. Come 2007, the plate is lost one night, never to be seen again. ACC is contacted, but they say they don’t have any record of the claim and the claimant is accused of lying. Family member tries to contact former dentist, but the dentist has long since passed and his records are gone. A local dentist is contacted and ACC orders an x-ray, which is sent to an “expert” in Queenstown who says it is a recent injury, even though there is evidence supporting the claim from another dentist formerly used by the claimant. ACC say they were right and don’t pay out. Even if it was a recent injury they would have had to pay out, but they don’t because they accused the claimant of lying. In the end, a new plate was purchased privately, and the reputation of ACC within my family is further dented.

    There is little to no recourse under the ACC system – it is too costly to go to court over a $1000 plate. Roll on competition!

  64. malcolm (550) Vote: Add rating 9  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    fonterra is a co-op..owned by the ‘workers’..

    how more ’socialist’ could it be..?

    Wrong. Fonterra is owned by whoever can borrow the $2M+ you need to buy a small dairy-farm plus cows (or lease one) and start supplying milk to Fonterra. No other workers can own part of Fonterra.

    Fonterra is a public company with a strange restriction on who and must own shares and how many they must own. It is certainly not a model for worker owned production.

    Most big companies can be worker owned. You just buy shares. Anyone can do it. You can start with $20.

  65. menace (114) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 6   Says:

    Ill quite happily pay what it costs in order to be covered.

    Currently i don’t find ACC levies to expensive.

    But should i get fucked over and not looked after when its what i payed for this is problem.

    A private insurance companies fundamental principal is to avoid pay out, they will have a set of rules and criteria for paying or rejecting claims. As does ACC now.

    I certianly fear though that a private company will fuck more people than acc does.

    I for one have no problem paying a little bit more for a system i do feel more safe with.

  66. menace (114) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    And why isnt the government capable of fixing acc?

    OK it costs us all more and basically peopel will ware that, there’s not much choice.

    So lets just get on with it.

  67. nickb (811) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Oh dear….

    The Nats, aided and abetted by the totalitarian nanny state law commission, are planning even more gross intrusions into the lives of the everyday citizen.
    The Nats really need to get their shit together, they scream hell and high water over the EFA, but their continuince of a massive nanny state rolls on daily, giving more power to themselves and taking more away from the people, see the anti smacking capitulation, gang patch bans, “cruising” legislation.

    Their calls to scrap the EFA (as disgusting as that law was) rings hollow when they carry on like this. I just feel pity towards those that keep thinking that the Nats are still a limited govt party that are going to bring us economic and social nirvana (or at least pretend it will) – Adolf among many others come to mind.

  68. menace (114) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 10   Says:

    Private insurance.

    Was just looking at some of the monthly costing in America.

    Holy Fuck’n Shit.

    I’ve never been raped(im a male), but looking at some of the prices make me think the two different experiences would not entirely similar.

  69. gazzmaniac (327) Vote: Add rating 6  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    menace – you might be comfortable paying a bit more to be covered by ACC, however many of us feel that we’d get a better deal with a different provider, and would like to have that choice. We might even choose ACC if it offers the best deal, however without competition we don’t know.

  70. libertyscott (245) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    In the UK, BNP Leader Nick Griffin is probably somewhat pleased with his appearance on BBC Question Time TV show. He’s vile and odious, but came across as moderate, deflected almost all criticism as being lies or that he changed his mind from when was younger, and has changed the BNP. It wont win most people, but those who find the BNP somewhat appealling probably think better of him now than they did before. He was inclusive of everyone, but Muslims who he called upon to swear allegiance to the British political system.

    He did say you go to New Zealand and nobody talks about who is indigenous and who isn’t!!

    BBC have done more to help the BNP than hinder it. Just goes to show that state broadcasting being balanced can have the results its advocates least wish. I doubt private TV would risk putting him on for fear advertisers would regard being associated with him being on TV as a bad move.

  71. menace (114) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:


    that article is pretty scaring stuff man.

    Are they really gonna take so much rights away from us?

    Others thoughts????

  72. nickb (811) Vote: Add rating 6  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Menace, I guess if there is one thing we can learn from history, it is that giving up our freedoms to politicians and bureaucrats will always end in colossal fuck ups.

    I mean, giving IRD and the Commerce Commission powers to bug your house? This is something that happens in the movies, e.g 1984, Clockwork Orange etc.

    The even sadder part of it is that most NZ’ers will simply ignore it or not understand it if they read it in their news, as 99% of NZers do not care about this kind of thing enough to write on a blog about it…

    They say people get the governments they deserve, and from looking at the gutless authoritarian lot we have in power now, that says a lot about the NZ public, their lemming like following of personalities instead of policy (i.e I’m sure John Key will sort it out, he’s a nice guy)

  73. Lance (243) Vote: Add rating 8  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Did you just call the farmers in Fonterra the ‘workers’?

    You’ll get kicked out of the communist party for that! Wash your mouth out; remember your brainwashing ‘farmers are the evil minions of the far right’.

  74. menace (114) Vote: Add rating 4  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    nickb, that is true, most kiwis don’t actually care about anything except there pockets.
    So many people i know when you mention this sort of thing to them, just say oh well, and the reason to say oh well is that they seem to do ok for them selves and they don’t do wrong things so it doesnt apply to them so who cares.


    hmm, scary stuff man.

  75. nickb (811) Vote: Add rating 7  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Agreed Menace.
    I often try to think back through history and think how we ended up with such big government, government that has moved from protecting our life, liberty, and pursuit of happyness, to becoming a leviathan welfare state, and I am yet to pinpoint a single cause..

    One thing is for sure, our ancestors would be turning in their graves.

  76. Jack5 (1230) Vote: Add rating 5  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Owen’s 10.36 post about how ACC reform will help small businesses is spot on.

    It is unjust that small family businesses, often home based and in minimal risk, white collar work, are hit twice by ACC.

    A more important reason for bringing private providers within the ACC scheme is to trim back the enormous amount of bludging that goes on.

    Why should others pay for accident care for motor-cyclists? Of for self-employed manual workers who go on to ACC with “work related injuries” when their business dries up in hard times, then suddenly “recover” when the economy lifts? What about the epidemic of RSI that never really was? For every genuine RSI injury and the thousands who suffered genuine RSI in industries such as meat processing there were at least 10 freeloaders in recently computerised white collar industry who seized on RSI as a perk. They soon opposed bosses who challenged them with the cunning tactics of alleging such bosses contributed to RSI by causing tension at work.

    Labour and its mates have turned ACC into a parallel welfare system, and the Government reforms that will save it, and parts of ACC are good, are at least better than the endless litigation and lawyer frenzy that preceded the scheme.

  77. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 4   Says:

    “..are at least better than the endless litigation and lawyer frenzy that preceded the scheme..”

    um..!..this is what you are arguing we return to..

    how can you be so confused..?

    as i said..’um!’..


  78. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    John Key this morning launched his national standards initiative this morning saying it was perhaps his most important project. For such a level of importance, it has been launched with careless haste and in the face of a recently published Cambridge University report questioning such a programme in the light of Britain’s 12 year experience.

    Here is an extract from the report:

    “Standards: beyond the rhetoric. For over two decades the word ‘standards’ has dominated educational
    politics. The report re-assesses both the prevailing concept of standards – finding it restricted, restrictive
    and misleading – and the national and international evidence on what has happened to primary school
    standards in recent years. The picture is neither as rosy nor as bleak as opposing camps tend to claim.
    Subject to the limitations of the conventional definition, many of the positive claims about standards can
    be sustained, but so too can some of the negatives; there are methodological problems with some of the
    test procedures and data; and several of the more spectacular assertions (such as that in 1997 English
    primary education was at a ‘low state’, or that testing of itself drives up standards, or that SATs are the
    only way to hold schools to account) have little or no basis in evidence.”

    You can listen to an interview on Morning Report at RNZ or download a briefing or the report itself at

  79. Redbaiter (7963) Vote: Add rating 17  Subtract rating 4   Says:

    A post censored by Aunty Peter Cresswell over at that most politically correct and authoritarian den of ypocrisy and deceit, NOT PC- where as usual they’re waffling on with same old propaganda offensive- “right is equal to left”


    What a weak and unfunny joke. The hapless waffling of a feeble minded Progressive desperately labelling the National Socialist Workers Party as “right wing” in a frantic attempt to carve a political niche for a cravenly sycophantic clique of completely directionless arse licking political nobodies.

  80. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 11   Says:

    the eighties was john keys’ ‘decade’

    (that time when he can’t remember when he was for or against the springbok

    must be memory

    ‘cos he dosen’t bullshit us


    does anyone else reckon he is trying to take us back there..?


  81. BlackMoss (62) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    Yeah, I’m a bit confused about this emphasis on standards on numeracy and literacy alone. These are admittedly important but the reality is we need innovative, creative thinkers to create new products/services and grow our GDP. The ability to learn how to pass given tests, so schools can give themselves a pat on the back for teaching kids how to pass a test, for NZers to feel proud with every headline that shows we are doing well with respect to some OECD average, is all well and good but this is 2009 — all the rhetoric I hear reminds me of some 50s schoolroom with kids reciting their times tables. Not that this can’t be part of the schooling mix, and not that I disagree with standards, but where is the “new” education system that will take is into the 21st century? Where is leadership, networking and innovative thinking in the mix? I heard the government just scrapped an intermediary role for a variety of subjects (arts, science, P.E etc.) which helped schools improve the curriculum and gave them new teaching ideas for these areas. Isn’t there just the slightest danger when imprinting the government imprinsts its latest philosophy on education that we are throwing the baby out with the bath water?

  82. side show bob (1991) Vote: Add rating 10  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Lance, don’t waste you time with the dropkick he is beyond help. He has a deep seated hatred of dairy farmers and the evil Fonterra. A year or so ago he was having one of his usual rants about dairy farming . I pointed out that dairy farming brought in about 30% of our GDP and thus I was paying 30% of his wages, this was not taken well. To make matters worst I suggested that if he was so opposed to dairy farming he may wish to refuse 30% of his DPB, not to do so would be highly hypocritical on his part. Discussion ended. The man is a moron and a hypocrite to boot.

  83. senzafine (216) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    Where is leadership, networking and innovative thinking in the mix?

    With the current (and appalling) level of basic reading, writing and arithmetic skills, quite frankly its nowhere.

  84. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 12   Says:

    so..bloody-hands -bob..

    did you click on that link showing your farming area as being the dirtiest in the country..?

    your rivers the most full of cowshit/farm ‘run-off’..

    proud of that..?..are you..?

    and i first cited a co-op model..that i favoured over ‘government-owned-everything’..

    and do i have a ‘deep-seated hatred’ for the way you abuse/exploit/kill animals..?

    why yes..!..i do believe i do..

    all your money is soaked in their blood/suffering..

    really ‘dirty-dairy’


  85. Inventory2 (3741) Vote: Add rating 12  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    @ Phillip Ure

    Bottom line: the Dairy Industry contributes more to New Zealand in an minute than you will in a lifetime.

  86. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 9   Says:


    you mean all the degraded land/waterways..?

    no price/value on that..?

    you mean all the death/disease caused by their ‘product’..?

    no price/value on that..?

    our country turned into an unsustainable mono-culture..

    subject to/dependant on..

    the market vagaries of that mono-product..?

    no price/value on that..?


  87. Inventory2 (3741) Vote: Add rating 12  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    I was actually thinking more about the export dollars generated, and the jobs created Phil. We do business in Hawera, which would likely as not fall over but for the Waharoa Fonterra plant.

    But then again, I guess that “jobs” isn’t your specialist subject

  88. LUCY (326) Vote: Add rating 8  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Philu and Luc. As I have said before opening ACC up to competition is NOT privitisation. You both will be able to stay with, and pay, ACC.

    The difference is we dont have to go along with you. With competition we have a choice, stay with ACC or go to another provider.

    A choice chaps, something that you really dont like people to have do you?

  89. CraigM (633) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    YO ! Ego is in the house……listen up you plebs.

    “What do we call list MPs? Whatever they want us to call them ”

    How can so many, elected on the coattails of so few, think they can command so many?

    Arrogant fuckwits!

  90. CraigM (633) Vote: Add rating 4  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    “I guess that “jobs” isn’t your specialist subject’

    game, set, match.

    Subtle as always I2

  91. CraigM (633) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Q/ How many beers at lunchtime in the sun filled Viaduct is too many?

    answers on a beer mat, to be delivered to table 42…

  92. Tassman (40) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 8   Says:

    What? No topic for the great 3R masterplan? I’m not surprise for the lack of interest from a right wing propaganda…

    Parents, teachers, and students are keen participants of the 3Rs, Reading, Riting and Rounting all of the time whether at home or at school. The trouble is, children haven’t got the energy to concentrate mentally and physically on intense topics. The reason follows one; children are easily distracted when still for more than a minute, and two; their diet doesn’t produce the protein which stabilises the brain cell for learning.

    The result of an overseas research done on changing school children’s diet from energy fast food to proper fruits and veges had shown remarkable changes in their behaviour. Not only children are focused and concentrate on learning, but their attention seeking behaviour has also settled. As a result, teachers are left to do their job as children achieve higher marks.

    Again, Mr. Key is a master of disguised. He had deliberately redirected attention from the solid relationship between diet and children’s behaviour to teachers and parents. It is indoctrination of children for market consumerism whether food or drugs.

    And again, the government is not in office to produce benefits for the people but rather to promote profits for their capitalists masters.

  93. LUCY (326) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Off the topic guys but I had to Laugh – from the front page of Pravda

    “Arctic Ice to Melt Entirely in 20 Years if People Continue to Smoke”

    Now thats a new one. Global warming is now down to people smoking. Well what do you know I gave up 2 years ago looks like Ill have to take it up again (joke) to help global warming along ’cause its bloody cold here. Well its down to smoking AND having pets you are not going to eat.

  94. grumpyoldhori (987) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    Hmm, a profesional sport where players follow the money, sorry but why the celebrations in Southland ?
    Give me an unlimited budget and I could have a team called the east coast containing sod all east coaters winning the shield.

    The shield meant something in amateur days but today it means sod all.

  95. side show bob (1991) Vote: Add rating 7  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    So………..PhilU……..clicked on to your poxy link this morning. Who do we see but a smiling Storming Norman, ah, straight away I knew I was on the website of the demented and deranged. I’m not sure if you know where I live but I’m pretty sure it’s not where you think it is. Suggest you have another go. Oh and for your edification can drink any water out of the local creeks and rivers, the cows do. The water from our well is ranked in the highest level for drinking by the local regional council and I must say it is light years ahead of the crap you swallow in the big smoke. Pollution………sorry mate, wrong again.

  96. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 10   Says:

    i guess the cows aren’t pissing/shitting in yr well then..?

    unlike the rivers..?

    so..what ‘region’ are you in..?

    are you in the ‘clean-dairy’-region..?

    just up the road from

    where the cows piss/shit in the rivers..

    but they are still sparkling

    face are a defiler of both environment..and animals..

    making blood-stained/polluted monies..

    you are the fucken problem..


  97. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 8   Says:

    lucy..the plan is to carve-out the only profitable parts of acc..

    (the ones whose profits help pay for those unprofitable components..)

    and to give them to the aussies to profit off..

    and the cost of those (formerly-supported) ‘bits’..

    will be left for us to bear the full cost of..?

    please tell me how that makes any kind of sense..?..

    ..economic..or any other..?

    so..who will profit..?

    answer:..the australian insurance industry..

    and the big ‘losers’..?

    the people of new zealand..

    left with all the ‘bad’ bits..

    gee..!..that’s rational/


  98. side show bob (1991) Vote: Add rating 10  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    “will be left for us to ( bear (animal) ) bare the full cost of……?

    Fuck you crack me up, you missed your true calling, should have been a comedian.

    The only thing you bloody socialists can’t bare is the thought that all those evil rich pricks jumping ship and leaving the trough bare.

    Oh shit what will we do, who can we fleece now………..oh, Whoa is us, FUUUUUUUUCCCCCCK the sky is falling.

    Anyhow enough pissing around, Friday night and time for a beer, dry as an Arabs fart.

  99. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 8   Says:

    that’s right answers..

    just ad hominems..a bit of bluster..

    and out the

    and this isn’t a ’socialist’-issue..

    this is a you making your money..

    from fucking over/up our environment..

    being abominably cruel to animals..

    and peddling yr cancer-causing muck..

    (no small


  100. Jack5 (1230) Vote: Add rating 5  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Philu the Philetetted at 1.40 seems to think either we have the present welfarised, Labourised, ACC with payments for grief counselling etc or no ACC at all.

    Wrong. We can have a compulsory accident-insurance scheme, as originally established, with private insurance company participation and still not have everything solved in clogged up courts by a horde of lawyers as in pre-ACC days.

    There is life outside welfare Philu.

  101. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 6   Says:

    “..and still not have everything solved in clogged up courts by a horde of lawyers as in pre-ACC days…”

    yeah..?..and how will you manage that trick..? we give the profit-making bits to the aussies..?

    and keep the loss-making ones for ourselves..?

    good one..! einstein..?

    how about one of you apologists/boosters of this..

    explain how that is good for us..?

    (and i fail to see how yr ‘life outside welfare’ this context..makes any sense at all..

    maybe you could..?

    oh..!..never mind..!..)


  102. wreck1080 (786) Vote: Add rating 4  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    The ACC privatisation debate just illustrates the abject stupidity of the remaining labour supporters.

    The argument from the likes of Phil Goff and mickeysavages, is that ACC privatisation will line the pockets of greedy Australian corporations.

    I say, so what? If the aussies run a more efficient operation and can offer lower premiums then i gladly line their pockets. Phil Goff and mickey have this crazy idea that you should instead line the pockets of snivelling little kiwi bureaucrats who can’t get a job in the real world.

    Phil and his dimwit drones such as mickeysavage just don’t get it.

    If we take the philosophy of their arguments to a logical conclusion, then NZ will be building our own cars, TV’s and other consumer items. After all, we don’t want to line the pockets of other nations.

  103. Jack5 (1230) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    New topic for a minute if I may …

    The Bridgestone tyre plant in Christchurch – the old Firestone plant set up in World War 2 as a strategic industry – is to close along with Bridgestone’s plant in Australia (link below). This will hit 275 Chch jobs, and with the multiplier effect that probably means about 1400.

    The USA has slammed emergency tariffs to protect its tyre plants from Chinese dumping but that won’t happen here, especially with the free trade agreement with China.

    The finance purists, and the media-dominating bank economists and other service industry analysts will say this is inevitable. If so, what will replace it both as an employer at that skill level and if not in exports, in import substitution?

    NZ foreign exchange analysts and Government economists can keep lying to the world as in the outrageous claims that we have more mineral wealth per head than Australia (they were quoting not even unproven reserves but unfound reserves on the bloody ocean floor). This will help keep the kiwi dollar in the stratosphere and kill off more export and import-substitution industries and keep these NZ lying fuckers in sinecures until the country finally wakes up poor and bereft, near if not level with poor Western Samoa and Tonga.

    As for the China NZ Free Trade agreement – it’s a crock. Fonterra’s Sanlu is being followed by disaster for remaining NZ manufacturing.

    The link:

  104. Inventory2 (3741) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    @ Phillip Ure – cows, sheep and other animals have been – pardon my saying this at dinner-time people – pissing and shitting into streams and rivers since the dawn of time. It’s hardly a new phenomenon. And sheesh, how long d’ya reckon people have been milking cows?

  105. LUCY (326) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Herald Tonight

    “Lawless turns up at Salinger ERA hearing.”

    “Actress Lucy Lawless, understood to be an acquaintance of Dr Salinger’s, turned up to watch the hearing today.”

    Of course she did, he is her global warming guru.

  106. jackp (298) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    I like what Lucy said. Why is Philu mickeysavage screaming the sky is falling when ACC will be open to competition. If ACC is so good, then why not continue to go with them? Competition is good. Look at GM and Toyota. Without Toyota or Nissan, Honda, etc, GM would have continued to make cars that fall apart or are not in demand, only cars that make them money. Arrogance brought that company down along with compitition. If competition is brought in, ACC will have to meet the same demands. As far as workers being laid off, heck, they can work for their competition.

  107. malcolm (550) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Jack, re the US putting tariffs on Chinese-made tyres.

    Apparently there are no cheap tyres made in the US which compete with the imported Chinese tyres. The tariff will not create or save any jobs in the US. They’ll just force US tyres companies to import slightly more expensive low-end tyres from countries other than China.

    It’s pure politics. And the Chinese are pissed and are threatening to put tariffs on the lucrative US to China trade in big chicken feet :-)

  108. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 6   Says:

    so..inv is clearly a ok with more than 90% of our waterways being so polluted with cow shit/piss/farm run-off..


    so we know where you are coming from..

    you are a pro-polluter..

    (what’s to say..? such a knuckle-dragging braindead fucken moron..?

    spouting such imbecilic drivel..)

    and of course..lucy just ducks/evades the questioning of her flawed logic..

    and dishes up an ad hominem..

    thereby identifying herself as the female version of her knuckledragging/moronic male compatriots..(c.f..inv..)

    i’m still waiting for someone to tell me how giving the profitable bits of acc to aust insurance companies..

    and us keeping the unprofitable bits..

    is ‘good’ for us..)


  109. malcolm (550) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    @ Phillip Ure – cows, sheep and other animals have been – pardon my saying this at dinner-time people – pissing and shitting into streams and rivers since the dawn of time. It’s hardly a new phenomenon. And sheesh, how long d’ya reckon people have been milking cows?

    Intensive dairying is quite different from traditional pastoral farming of cattle and sheep. With traditional farming the waste is distributed all over the farm, and there is little problem. With dairying the cows are in the milking shed twice a day and there is a lot of washed-down effluent which then goes into settling ponds. It’s leakage/run-off from those ponds that causes the problems in water-ways.

    Also dairy-farming is more profitable and can support more use of fertilisers, hence more effluent from a given area of land.

    Not that I’m agreeing with Phil’s anti-farming rant. I suspect Phil is pretty ignorant of how farms operate.

  110. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 8   Says:

    i am not anti-farming..

    i am for sustainable farming..

    and this ain’t it..

    on a raft of levels..

    it has no future..

    it is a sunset-industry..

    slowly killing/eating itself..

    (unforunately it is also killing our environment..and people..)

    and yep..!..being a vegan/animal-rights person now is much like trying to argue against cigarette smoking in the fifties..

    but just as they were proven ‘right’..

    so will we..


  111. malcolm (550) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Phil, what type of farming would you consider sustainable in NZ?

  112. BlackMoss (62) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 3   Says:


    Maybe I’m too late to catch anyone but I really want someone to explain the logic of privatization to me. I can accept governments have inefficiencies and competition, and that in a true market situation with enough players and no price-fixing or cartel behaviour, prices should go down. But the logic for some of the privatization examples escapes me. ACC and insurance is a kind of middle case for me, my question is actually about private prisons:

    How does a company make money off what is essentially a cost?

  113. Shunda barunda (826) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    And what would we be farming them for Phil?, I assume drinking milk is of the devil for vegans?
    And phil unlike cigarette smoking humans are actually engineered to eat meat, I don’t see how you can link the two.

  114. BlackMoss (62) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    whoops — and competition was a typo

  115. LUCY (326) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    We had companies and the self employed opting for private accident insurance in the late ’90’s. And guess what the sky didnt fall, hoards of lawyers did not bog down the justice system with claims, those organisations and people that chose to stay with ACC did so (there werent many tho) and life went on.

    I am talking from experience. I was one of those that monitored the private systems for the organisation I worked for AND their employees. The system worked there was better coverage, the service was definately more ‘user friendly’ (the user I refer to was the customer of the service ie the employee and not the funder ie the employer) and it was cost effective.

    Profit is not a dirty word. When China despised profit millions of their people starved to death. Now they understand that profit is necessay they are booming. Russia despised profit and it collapsed. Now well for a while they were doing ok but Putin looks like he may take them in another direction but that is a different story. I could go on but you get the drift.

    So what if ‘Australian” insurance companies make a profit? As long as they provide good coverage and service at a reasonable cost good on them. Its called business.

  116. LUCY (326) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    “and of course..lucy just ducks/evades the questioning of her flawed logic..

    and dishes up an ad hominem..

    thereby identifying herself as the female version of her knuckledragging/moronic male compatriots..(c.f..inv..)”

    Aw shucks Philu that is so nice. I dont usually read your rantings but I saw my name. Thank you for treating me the same as you treat my “knuckledragging/moronic male compatriots” it convinces me Im on the right track.


  117. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 6   Says:

    “..Phil, what type of farming would you consider sustainable in NZ?..”

    growing food..

    not animals..

    and lucy..and others..still haven’t explained how giving 200 million profit a year..

    to the aust insurance companies..

    is good for us..


  118. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 6   Says:

    “..And phil unlike cigarette smoking humans are actually engineered to eat meat..”

    yeah..that’s why so many heavy meat/fat-eaters get bowel


  119. Southern Raider (1120) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    Just saw the head of the Principles Federation on Close Up complaining that the Govt is dragging education back into the 19th Century.

    He said although it would be good if children learned the 3 R’s its not the only reason they come to school. There are other reasons like wanting to have fun.

    What a complete cock and is this is the kind of person leading the education industry we are in big trouble.

  120. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 4   Says:


    Like I said, I am not, in principle, opposed to competition. However, we should be clear about who gets the benefit of choice here – it’s not me, as these days I am usually an employee.

    Only my employer gets the benefit of choice, as only the employer decides who the provider will be.

    Now I actually don’t know the proportion paid vis a vis employer/employee, but I do know I have lately contributed about 1500 bucks per year to ACC, but, at least under the last bout of competition, my preference counts for nought.

    What’s your take on that?

    PS Are you a girl or not? I’m kind of old fashioned with the ladies, so it’s nice to know.

  121. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    It’s OK about the girl bit Lucy, just saw your reply to Phil ;-)

  122. Patrick Starr (3454) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:


    If you’re so concerned about polluted waterways why don’t you go and start cleaning them up?

  123. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 5   Says:

    some ‘deep thinking’ starr..?


  124. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 2   Says:


    Do yourself a favour and go to That page has links to media coverage of the recent report, surveying 12 years of concentrating on the 3Rs, that will probably guide Britain away from the direction we are just heading down.

    Just stick your ideology into a holding pen and take a look.

    I directed you to the media links page cos they do the thinking for you.

  125. Jack5 (1230) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Further to my 5.47 post on Bridgestone pulling out of manufacturing in Christchurch…

    The NZ dollar level is relevant, but the Chinese currency level is even more relevant, and that may be why the Americans are acting against Chinese tyre dumping.

    Many Kiwiblog readers will regard American economist and commentator Paul Krugman as a bit leftist for their liking, but he is strong on currency, and demonstrated this with advice to Malaysia during the Asian meltdown in the 1990s.

    In the link below Krugman discusses in his New York Times column how China holds down its currency. (No float there, no currency free market. This raises the question of whether you can have a perfect free trade agreement when one of the parties controls its currency exchange rates.)

    The link:

  126. Hurf Durf (1044) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    Phool and Puke, you cretins. ACC isn’t being privatised, competition is being allowed in to make it more efficient (it isn’t doing well on its own – the command economy!). And it’s about time after the Klark-Kullen Ekonomik Katastrophe.

  127. MikeNZ (645) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    # BlackMoss (49) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 1 Says:
    October 23rd, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    How does a company make money off what is essentially a cost?

    ACC is not a cost it is an insurance, therefore someone pays and others share the cost therefore premiums can and do go up as a result of the acturial loading due to a claims history.
    One way to offset this is to make someone (where possible) at fault and recover all or some of your costs.
    The present system is no fault therefore no one can be held accountable if they are at fault and everyone shares the cost equally supposedly.

  128. Patrick Starr (3454) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    “some ‘deep thinking’ starr..?”

    c’mon wanker, you wanted a debate……

    Answer the question

  129. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    and..why don’t you go and stick your head up your arse..

    and whistle dixie..?

    “..c’mon wanker, you wanted a debate……

    Answer the question.”


  130. Patrick Starr (3454) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    have you heard of ‘adopt a stream’ phool?, why dont you adopt the one that concerns you and clean it up?

  131. nickb (811) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    Wonder if we can put this down to Obummer’s tarriffs.
    Philu, your mate Obummer’s policies are doing wonders for the ordinary kiwi….


  132. BlackMoss (62) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 0   Says:


    As i said in my post, I regard as ACC as a kind of middle case — I’m not totally ruling out that privatization could make sense. My question related to privitization of prisons — I mean, how do you make money off what has to be viewed in the first instance as a cost to society. To guess at some answers, I would say you could: (i) get the prisoners to provide a service or a good, or (ii) you could reduce costs. The first option is similar to the work for the dole idea, you could get prisoners to provide their labour in the commerical arena, say doing laundery like on the movies, but this would push out the people that actually do this work in the first place, doable I spose. You could reduce costs in a number of ways, but in none of these ways can I see positive results, i.e. if you reduce labour costs you disenfranchise already stressed prison guards and open them up to even greater possibilities of corruption, you could cut down on any education, rehabilitation, but that destroys the principle of what prisoners are in the first place (not to some people, I know). I mean, I just think you’re naive if you think the private market is going to save you — the problems of private companies are obvious if you think about it — they have one, and only one, bottom line — profit. They will cynically and sometimes illegally, operate to that imperative. Just this week or two we have had Telecom for some anti-competitive practice. Companies aren’t what they portray themselves in flash marketing promotions. Just read LUCY post, apparently its possible to reduce costs, improve coverage and make a profit. Now I accept if insurance has just been an absolute gravy train, with all and sundry ripping off the system, then there is room for improvement, but why can’t the ACC be held to account for that? The reality is, is that the best way to make a profit on the insurance industry is to maximize premiums while being competitive with other providers (fine), and reduce the payouts you make by limiting coverage — its that step that could be problematic, and IMO the best post in today’s debate is wynkie at 10:48 pm and he raises some things that everyone should consider, lest something unforeseen happen to them and they find they’re in a bit of a situation. as usual for a factual based post, no-one comments on it and returns to their idealogical diatribes and general left or right propaganda. I thought it was obvious that the truth is usually to be found somewhere in the middle. anyway that’s my rant…

  133. nickb (811) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    “Maybe I’m too late to catch anyone but I really want someone to explain the logic of privatization to me. I can accept governments have inefficiencies and competition, and that in a true market situation with enough players and no price-fixing or cartel behaviour, prices should go down. But the logic for some of the privatization examples escapes me. ACC and insurance is a kind of middle case for me, my question is actually about private prisons:”

    I lean way to the right as well Blackmoss, but I don’t agree with private prisons at this stage. In my view, protecting citizens and running the criminal justice and courts system should be (and once was :( ) the main function of government. Everything the government gets into that causes problems and raises moral issues around taking other peoples money to pay for politicians’ pet projects.

    Which is why I find it strange that some on the right advocate private prisons, yet still want the state to run their hospitals, schools, families commissions, welfare, cake decorating classes etc.. It seems like these people have it all round the wrong way, they are not focussing on what the government should be doing in the first place, rather HOW the government should do it (when the government shouldn’t have its nose in it at all).

    As well as that, now don’t get me wrong I am all for harsh punishment for the violent thugs that roam our streets, but private enterprise profiting off rising crime does not sit too well with me; you can then end up with lobby groups popping up advocating for harsh sentences etc all while having vested interests in more prisoners.

    If that rant makes sense to you Blackmoss, that is my thoughts on it anyway :)

  134. BlackMoss (62) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 2   Says:


    Good to hear there’s some nuanced ideas about privatization and that not everyone is rushing to a one-size fits all approach ;)

  135. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 6   Says:

    Dwarf…you usual thoughtless and ill informed rantings, I see.

    Our ACC system is very efficient, and it is doing well. It runs at about half the cost of the Australian scheme, so we keep hearing on the wireless. If your mate Don (Juan) Brash wants us to catch up to Australia, all he needs to do is tell Jonki to double the price of ACC and whammo!

    Last financial year, as I patiently point out, often, ACC received in premiums more than it paid out, and it currently has 10 billion (not a misprint) in cash and investments. The shortfall was only as regards setting aside the funding for the tail, a contingent liability. The need for funding the tail is disputed, but both our major parties sign up to it.

    As I said, I have no problem with competition, but I would prefer to stick with ACC, personally. But of course, if I was an employee, I don’t have that choice. Only my employer, under the same rules as last time, has that privilege.

    So just calm down, stop looking for reds under your bed, and try to make a meaningful contribution.

  136. Steve (757) Vote: Add rating 5  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    This is a long weekend for some. Tell you what, you can have Monday off OK.
    I mean just for once, have a holiday please.
    Labour weekend is the start of summer, the start of BBQ’s. We get ready for the joining of families.
    You and your vegan dogs can fuck off.
    Once we laughed at your drug induced comments and stupidity.
    Nobody cares about you now.
    They did not care today, they did not care yesterday and they will not care tomorrow.
    They did not care last week and they will not care next week.
    They did not care last year, they do not care this year and they will not care next year.
    You are a stupid prick.

  137. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 1   Says:


    Why do you encourage him?

    Now he will be even more energised!


  138. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 3  Subtract rating 3   Says:


    deep down…you care..!!!

    you really really care..!!


  139. Hurf Durf (1044) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    Phool knows a thing or two about animal abuse. After all, it’s not like he asked to be born.

  140. philu (6980) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 3   Says:

    “..I mean just for once, have a holiday please…”

    i can’t..

    news never sleeps..


  141. Patrick Starr (3454) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    that’s right answers..

    just ad hominems..a bit of bluster..

    answer the question numbnuts. Why dont you do something about the environment instead of just complaining- like adopt a stream? – If you think side show bobs stream is dirty, why dont you clean it up?

  142. starboard (677) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says: tell..when are the yanks buying in to whore..heh heh snigger snort..

  143. Luc Hansen (667) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 5   Says:

    LUCY has gone quiet.

    I guess she is going off on a hot date…;-)

  144. joe90 (66) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 2   Says:

    LUCY has gone quiet.

    Nah, cough!, gone for a fag before the lung transplant, cough!, fucking COPD cough!.

  145. Viking2 (975) Vote: Add rating 1  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    Where is Gen Debate when you need to get stuff out of your head??????

    Certificates for pupils who stood up to Laws
    By KAY BLUNDELL – The Dominion Post
    Last updated 05:00 24/10/2009

    KENT BLECHYNDEN/The Dominion Post
    H IS FOR HONOURED: Otaki School kids received certificates from Joris de Bres after writing a letter to Wanganui Mayor Michael Laws about changing the name of Wanganui to Whanganui. From left, Rautini Thompson, Maria Logan-Richards, Amokura Rangiheuea gather round Mr de Bres.
    Relevant offers

    A group of Otaki primary school pupils have been honoured by Race Relations Commissioner Joris de Bres for acting with dignity in dealing with criticism from Wanganui Mayor Michael Laws.

    The pupils, aged 11 to 13, at Otaki School’s kura kaupapa unit, were upset with an angry reply from Mr Laws, whom they wrote to in August urging him to insert the letter “h” in Wanganui.

    Mr de Bres presented the girls with certificates yesterday to honour their stance.

    “Your message to stand up for yourself is clear. You acted with real dignity and calm and quietly stood up for what you thought when dealing with such rubbish from Wanganui’s mayor.

    “There has been a huge response from around the country for what you did. I hope the minister in charge of this issue will decide to correct the spelling,” Mr de Bres said.

    He believed the way they had dealt with criticism was an example for everyone in New Zealand.

    Ngarui Wihongi-Manukau, Rautini Thompson, Maria Logan-Richards, Amokura Rangiheueu, Teina Davis and Te Rangiamohia Nikora-Davis were disappointed Mr Laws had failed to respond to issues they had raised about the spelling of the town and asked him to apologise.

    His reply had said: “There are so many deficiencies of both fact and logic in your letters I barely know where to start. When your class starts addressing the real issues of Maoridom – particularly the appalling rate of child abuse and child murder within Maori society, then I will take the rest of your views seriously.”

    “He sounded angry, it was like he was not listening to us because of things happening with our people,” Maria said.

    Mr Laws later asked the students to afternoon tea in his mayoral office saying, “If the impression was … I was somehow ‘bullying’ in my reply, I want to assure you it was the last thing from my mind.”

    The girls declined the offer.

    Although shy about receiving the honour, the girls said they were pleased they had stood up for themselves and would do so again.

  146. EverlastingFire (131) Vote: Add rating 2  Subtract rating 1   Says:

    ‘honoured’ by Joris de Bres? Hardly an achievement. You’d gain more credibility declining an award from the hypocrite and moron.

  147. LUCY (326) Vote: Add rating 0  Subtract rating 0   Says:

    joe90 (54) Vote: 1 1 Says:

    October 23rd, 2009 at 11:31 pm
    LUCY has gone quiet.

    Nah, cough!, gone for a fag before the lung transplant, cough!, fucking COPD cough!.

    Just for the record Joe I dont smoke.

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