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News: "I just wish more of my fellow queers would come out sometimes. It's nice out here, you know?" - Elton John

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Author Topic: Agnostics of the world unite!  (Read 758 times)
Fradley
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« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 10:55 PM »

(i stopped reading your arguement a while ago....)
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« Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 11:00 PM »

Oh and BTW you cant see or touch a black hole, but because of the effects of its precence you know its real. But then by your set of rules, black holes are not real either.
  Actually you can study the physical effects of black wholes, you can even create micro ones.  So that is not a legitimate analogy.

Though science is full of theories ... and hence its conflicts with religion, because scientific theories are aobut educated beliefs, not knowledge ... if they were known, they wouldn't be theories in the first place.


Huh, I guess the Romans nailed a figment to the cross then. That was silly of them wasnt it.
  I have never debated the historical reality of a person named Jesus who was crucified ... though many do.  That has nothing to do with your confusion over the concepts of "belief" and "knowledge."
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« Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 11:04 PM »


Actually you can study the physical effects of black wholes. 

Just as you can study the effects of God and Christs exsistance. BTW why did you add a w to holes?
 

I have never debated the historical reality of a person named Jesus who was crucified ... though many do.  That has nothing to do with your confusion over the concepts of "belief" and "knowledge."

So you accept the exsistance of Christ as a person as fact?
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Fradley
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« Reply #78 on: Yesterday at 11:21 PM »


Actually you can study the physical effects of black wholes. 

Just as you can study the effects of God and Christs exsistance. BTW why did you add a w to holes?
 

I have never debated the historical reality of a person named Jesus who was crucified ... though many do.  That has nothing to do with your confusion over the concepts of "belief" and "knowledge."

So you accept the exsistance of Christ as a person as fact?

Warning: potentially offensive.
(note, only read the last two comments you two made)
-i don't see how you can study the effects of God and Christ.. do give an example at least. (so i can get your point)
-W in hole, i do that all the time... spell checker still thinks its right kuz its a real word, just wrong one.
-I think if you two truly believe what you say you do, then there really isn't any need for this little argument..
-These differing views is what makes the world that much more richer. embrace it.
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irishkiwi
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« Reply #79 on: Yesterday at 11:23 PM »

Look at christanity... both the good and the bad of it. That is a result of Christ. An effect of Christs exsistance.
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« Reply #80 on: Yesterday at 11:26 PM »


Actually you can study the physical effects of black wholes. 

Just as you can study the effects of God and Christs exsistance. BTW why did you add a w to holes?
 

I have never debated the historical reality of a person named Jesus who was crucified ... though many do.  That has nothing to do with your confusion over the concepts of "belief" and "knowledge."

So you accept the exsistance of Christ as a person as fact?

No actually you cannot study the physical effects of God or Christ ... they don't have gravity or affect gravity in any way our science can detect.  W is because I am tired and not paying that much attention ... no hidden meaning there.


I personally accept the existance of Jesus, though not in a way that I could historically prove it to people in opposition to the belief that he did exist.  So I believe he existed, I don't know he existed.  But either scenario is irrelevant to me because its the mythos around him that I enjoy.  I like the idea of turning the other cheek, forgiving enemies, doing unto others and I like how it has inspired people like Desmond TuTu, Martin Luther King, and Abraham lincoln.  I also like the idea of an all loving divine being that sends angels and his son to l help us heal and find heaven.  

But I also pationately believe in the Bishop of Myra (St. Nicholas, Santa Claus, Father Christmas) and hope to emoby his spirit when I am an old man.

Thats the beauty of agnosticism.  We get to play with religion.
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« Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 11:30 PM »


Thats the beauty of agnosticism.  We get to play with religion.

Hmmm and also why I find your claim of being a christain agnostic next to impossible to accept.
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« Reply #82 on: Yesterday at 11:30 PM »

Look at christanity... both the good and the bad of it. That is a result of Christ. An effect of Christs exsistance.

NO that is an effect of human beings.  The human part is examinable, not the Christ part.  Sorry sweetie, you just can't put god under a microscope to prove she is real.  If you could she wouldn't be God, the people running the microscope would be.
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« Reply #83 on: Yesterday at 11:34 PM »

If it wasnt for Christ, his work, his word, his teachings, there would b no christanity. Because of his influance there is christanity, an effect of him having been here.
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« Reply #84 on: Yesterday at 11:38 PM »


Thats the beauty of agnosticism.  We get to play with religion.

Hmmm and also why I find your claim of being a christain agnostic next to impossible to accept.

Thats because it is the complete opposite of you.  Knowledge destroys faith.  Faith is about belief without knowledge.  Agnosticism is the ultimate example of faith, because it says the question is not whether there is a god or not ... Agnosticism says the answer to that question in a scientific & experiential sense in unknowable.

When you accept that you cannot "know" anything about god like you can about an apple or a tree, then you can not be dogmatic about your own beliefs or lack of them.  Agnostics believe it will all come out in the wash so to speak, and if it doesn't, then it doesn't matter.  I am Christian in a humanist way- out of respect for Christ's teachings and the western cultural Christian things I enjoy like evensong, Anglican churches, Christmas, Easter, and catholic nuns.   BigGrin
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« Reply #85 on: Yesterday at 11:41 PM »

Ahh so you like all the ceremony, but just dont really buy into it.

Knowledge does not destroy faith. It makes it stronger. Because I know God exsists, I can have unfettering faith in him. Knowledge CAN destoroy belief, but not faith.
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Fradley
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« Reply #86 on: Yesterday at 11:59 PM »

If it wasnt for Christ, his work, his word, his teachings, there would b no christanity. Because of his influance there is christanity, an effect of him having been here.

I see your point, but i still dont except it as proof to the existence of Christ as described in the bible. (i was never brought up religious, so please forgive all my clear ignorance's) i think that proves something deffinately went down back in the day, and there probably was a man named jesus who did most of those things.. apologies again for my rudeness.  but how can you prove the existance of him being supernatural, and the existance of God too.

plus, i've always thought that the bible was written over 100 years after all that stuff happened with jesus.. whats to say that the effect of chinese whispers hasnt played a role? noone can tell a story that phenomenal over 100 years without distorting the truth. *guilty of doing that to not so interesting storys to up the interest factor* plus isnt there evidence that parts of the bible have been changed/missing? meh.. i really dont have too much correct knowledge, maybe you can correct me.
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« Reply #87 on: Today at 12:28 AM »

Oh no, parts of the Bible have been tinkered with, theres no doubt about at all. It has been translated so many times, bits removed to suite the politics of the day and so on. Hell What you see in the Bible is only what was included. There were a large number of Gospels let out for one reason or another. Also the Bible is not the be all and end all. There are scores of other books, scrolls etc... of great religious impratance locked up in the Vatican. Also, each book by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the Bible have other texts outside of the Bible that goe with them. So when you say you dont have too much knowledge on this subject... that aint a crime. There is a vast sea of knowledge out there, and most people only have the slightest glimmer of information that there really is.

There were writings made during Christs life, jst after his death, and 100s of yrs after his death. Also there is Hebrew history which spports the exsistnace of Christ, along with a few histories of Roman writers. The events as he died alone would indicate that he was not just some nutcase (darkening of the sky, earthquake, tearing of the veil etc... all his Hebrew scripture written 100s of years before the events).

For some no amount of proof will let them accept Christ is the risen lord, or that he even exsisted. And given the sort of world we now live in, where mocking religion is a national past time, its easier to go with the flow and jst laugh at the nutty christains. So it is really up to you to dig deeper to look for the knowledge, and not be put off when someone mocks you for even considering the subject.


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Fradley
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« Reply #88 on: Today at 12:53 AM »

Well. ok, so with that knowledge, i can be fairly sure that jesus did exist. but i still see no proof in anything else.. but im too lazy to try...

But i still can't help but find some of the things christians teach a little bit silly.. to name a few... um, adam and eve, and noah's arc.. um... again, lack of knowledge..
and then past all that, theres other religions out there, and theyre all so diverse. how does a religion come into existence, why, where, when, who? it makes me certain that somethings not right...
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« Reply #89 on: Today at 07:09 AM »

and then past all that, theres other religions out there, and theyre all so diverse. how does a religion come into existence, why, where, when, who? It makes me certain that somethings not right...

Why would diversity have to equal something 'being not right'?

Though agnostic, I don't have the hostility toward religion that I see in many others who have suffered at the hands of religion.  I look at it from a sociological-anthopological perspective.  Humanity is the only animal that engages in religious experience though some of our more closely related cousins have had behaviours interpreted as religious in nature.  We have obviously evolved this inclination for a reason ... and it sets us apart from all other living things more than language, music and art.

So I would say from a scientific perspective we probably do not know very much about how religion aids humanity psychologically, in evolution, or as a successful species.  in a Jungian sense, religion may offer benefits for psychological survival without having to be empirically true.

Ahh so you like all the ceremony, but just dont really buy into it.

Knowledge does not destroy faith. It makes it stronger. Because I know God exsists, I can have unfettering faith in him. Knowledge CAN destoroy belief, but not faith.

People seem to me to always want to lump atheism and agnosticism together.  If you had a scale of religious experience, for me it would look like this:

Theism----------Agnosticism----------Atheism  rather than:  Theism--------------------Atheism/Agnosticism

Agnosticism exists on the blade of a knife between the two, as it doesn't affirm or deny God, just describes the reality or unreality of God as unknowable.

So, 'buying into it' doesn't fit into it ... as I could neither 'buy into it' or not 'buy into it'.  I see religion as the adult way of playing with dolls and trucks as a kid ... its a mature way of engaing with imagination and whether or not that mind play relates to an ultimate reality is an unknowable dynamic.

Re-read earlier dfinition of faith.  YOu cannot have faith with knowledge.  Faith means believing something without knowledge ... thats what the word means! 
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He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked. The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.
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