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Author Topic: Agnostics of the world unite!  (Read 624 times)
siryesir
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« Reply #60 on: Today at 07:25 PM »

Yes I believe in God the father, the almighty, the maker of heaven and earth etc... however I know that Christ died for the sins of man and I know God exsists.


you believe so hard you've fooled yourself into thinking that means knowing. (nad i am happy for you that you have this belief, but its not for me though) the whole point in the word faith, is that its to believe in something without solid proof.

Brilliant Fradley!  I should have thought to explain from his religous perspective!  Thanks. 

Ephesians 2:8 & 9 IK, "For by grace you have been saved through FAITH...." Belief allows and is dependant on doubt.  One cannot have faith in something one 'knows' because knowledge is empirical, hence certain.  Knowledge and faith are exlcusive of one another.  Belief and faith go hand in hand.
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Fradley
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« Reply #61 on: Today at 07:30 PM »

Yep, i have to say, i partly believe in many things without having any proof what so ever. so i never say i know those things. i say i choose to believe it as a likely possibility, and later find that my oppinion will change. this could count as faith. but i view faith as a more powerful word, and requires 99% certainty.
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siryesir
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« Reply #62 on: Today at 07:34 PM »

AND that is why I love agnosticism!  Because it allows you the freedom of believing what ever the hell your mind may concieve, while denying you the arrogance of imposing that belief on others as 'knowledge'.

... hmm maybe, could be, perhaps:  the trinity of agnosticism.  LOL
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irishkiwi
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« Reply #63 on: Today at 08:08 PM »

you believe so hard you've fooled yourself into thinking that means knowing.

Thats actually a midly offensive statement. Theres no fooling involved.

I have never blindly accepted, but I have accepted.

Yes one can have faith in something that one knows to be true. Hell I know air bags are true, and I have faith that in the event of a crash mine will save me.
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siryesir
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« Reply #64 on: Today at 09:09 PM »

WOW.  I am sorry IK, you just don't get it. 

Coming from Alabama, but not having lived there in 15 years, I had forgotten how somtimes religion can be like brain washing and a person just can't understand anything outside their own frame of reference. I am sadden that it seems to exist here in NZ too.

Its amazing that you can not even grasp the actual diferences in the words know and believe, and now you violate the word faith as well. 

... And you are not trying to be argumentative or difficult, you really are so inbedded in catch phrase religiousity that you cannot actually percieve your own logical flaws.

You can't know that your air bags will save you until it has already happened.  You believe it.  It only becomes knowledge when it enters the realm of experience.  I am sorry and saddened that you can't seem to get your head around the difference. Kiss

Definitions:

Faith, 1): "firm belief in something for which there is no proof."  IF you have proof (knowledge), the word violates its own meaning and becomes something else.  You CANNOT have faith in something you 'know' because knowing is the proof part, hence it becomes a contradiction and a logical flaw.

Belief, 2): "a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing."  A state of mind!  That is not about knowledge ... its emotive.

knowledge, 3):  "the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experienceBigGrin

I do not know what manifests your paradigm for seeing the world.  I believe that you have the ability to see other people's perceptions and learn from them.  I have faith that you will make that effort, how ever challenging that may be.
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irishkiwi
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« Reply #65 on: Today at 09:14 PM »

Why thankyou, and said in such a patronising way as well. I will endevour to mend my misguided ways.
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siryesir
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« Reply #66 on: Today at 09:23 PM »

Why thankyou, and said in such a patronising way as well. I will endevour to mend my misguided ways.

Apologies, I was not intentionally trying to be patronising.  I used to think like you and use religious language they way you are ... so its a bit of a shock to see my former self in a kiwi and on a gay website.  And to remember being that way is all a bit full on for me.  But very interesting too.

Given that as my reality ( paradigm), I guess you could never see what I write in any way but patronising.  It was actually a sincere attempt at helping you to see my point. Lips Sealed
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irishkiwi
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« Reply #67 on: Today at 09:34 PM »

You almost imply a brainwashed closed eyes view on my behalf. Which would be quite wrong. I KNOW Christ and God exsist, I KNOW in accepting Christ as my saviour Im all good.

However, beyond that, Im happy to poke, prod, laugh at, dismiss, or accept all things christian depending on whats put up. Hell I have liked God to a pimp and a being with a very sick sense of humour (the whole Johna and the whale bet with the devil). While there are a great number of things I have a belief in, and faith about, and prob an equal number of things I dont, there are a couple of things about my religion that I know as truths.
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siryesir
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« Reply #68 on: Today at 09:51 PM »

I give up. LOL 

Bring them around for dinner sometime so I can "know" them too. DOH! You can't! Hence you can't "know", you believe.

YOu can attatch all the emotional religious feeling to belief you want, its still a belief ... not knowing.  When you can physically bring Christ to me, then it would be knowing.
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irishkiwi
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« Reply #69 on: Today at 09:58 PM »

Bring them around for dinner sometime so I can "know" them too. DOH! You can't! Hence you can't "know", you believe.

And there it is, Ive been waiting for the cant touch cant see hence not real argument to rear its head. I thought it wasnt far away.
Oh and BTW you cant see or touch a black hole, but because of the effects of its precence you know its real. But then by your set of rules, black holes are not real either.

You can attatch all the emotional religious feeling to belief you want, its still a belief ... not knowing.  When you can physically bring Christ to me, then it would be knowing.


Huh, I guess the Romans nailed a figment to the cross then. That was silly of them wasnt it.
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Kay
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« Reply #70 on: Today at 10:21 PM »

Yes I believe in God the father, the almighty, the maker of heaven and earth etc... however I know that Christ died for the sins of man and I know God exists.


Sorry Irish but if someone was taking your words literally then - unless you have a TARDIS and have been back in time and space to Jerusalem almost 2000 years ago - you can't KNOW whether Jesus lived or died .. no matter how much you believe it.  Belief is fine in itself and doesn't need to be defended.

And maybe you have had personal communications with God so you might KNOW God exists from personal experience.  And you may also believe in what is to you, the (translated) word of God.  And you may believe what the word of God tells you about Jesus, but that is only second-hand information, not direct knowledge.

It's a bit like the difficulty of proving most things.  For example, I can't prove that numbers exist.  I can see a representation of a number and touch the writing, but a number doesn't feel any different to a letter.  When you get down to it, both numbers and letters are ideas not real things.  But it doesn't matter whether I can prove their existence or not.  Most literate people wouldn't want to live without letters and numbers, even if they are imaginary constructs.
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Kay
irishkiwi
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« Reply #71 on: Today at 10:29 PM »

You dont need to apologise Kay, its not like Im surpirsed by reactions on here.
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siryesir
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« Reply #72 on: Today at 10:41 PM »

Most literate people wouldn't want to live without letters and numbers, even if they are imaginary constructs.

I love that Kay ... sums up exactly how I feel about God in my abstract christian agnosticism.  I love imaginary constructs, especially if they might be real ... but never known for sure.  Kiss
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Fradley
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« Reply #73 on: Today at 10:50 PM »

you believe so hard you've fooled yourself into thinking that means knowing.

Thats actually a midly offensive statement. Theres no fooling involved.

I have never blindly accepted, but I have accepted.

Yes one can have faith in something that one knows to be true. Hell I know air bags are true, and I have faith that in the event of a crash mine will save me.
yea sorry IK. i didnt mean to offend. in hind sight it is a bit. forgivenness please?

well I'll try my best to be a bit more cautious and not make such statements like that.
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irishkiwi
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« Reply #74 on: Today at 10:51 PM »

abstract christian agnosticism.

Oh good lord.
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